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Podcast 1: Making Science More Accessible

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Description

Episode 1 of PRIM&R's new podcast, "Research Ethics Reimagined", is available! Join as we explore building and maintaining trust in science in the 21st century with Robert Nobles, DrPH, MPH, CIP, Vice President for Research Administration at Emory University, and Amanda M. Dettmer, PhD, Research Scientist at the Yale Child Study Center. Follow us on your preferred podcast platform and be sure to enable notifications for updates on new episodes!

Contributors

  • Robert E. Nobles, II, DrPH, MPH (he/him/his)

    Emory University
    Atlanta, Georgia

  1. 00:00:01
    Welcome to Research Ethics Reimagined,
  2. 00:00:03
    a podcast created by public
  3. 00:00:05
    responsibility in medicine and research,
  4. 00:00:07
    or PRIMER. Here we talk with scientists,
  5. 00:00:10
    researchers, bioethicist, and some of
  6. 00:00:13
    the leading minds exploring the new
  7. 00:00:15
    frontiers of science. Join us to
  8. 00:00:17
    examine research ethics in the 21st
  9. 00:00:19
    century, and learn why it matters to
  10. 00:00:21
    you. I'm your host, Ivy Tillman,
  11. 00:00:24
    let's dive in
  12. 00:00:33
    I wanted to take a moment to introduce
  13. 00:00:35
    myself and welcome you to our first
  14. 00:00:37
    episode of Research Ethics Reimagine.
  15. 00:00:39
    My name is Ivy Tillman. I'm the
  16. 00:00:41
    Executive Director for Public
  17. 00:00:43
    Responsibility and Medicine and Research,
  18. 00:00:45
    and will be the host of our podcast.
  19. 00:00:48
    Before we begin our first episode, I
  20. 00:00:50
    wanted to share a little bit about
  21. 00:00:51
    myself and why I'm deeply connected to
  22. 00:00:54
    our mission here at Primer. I am a
  23. 00:00:56
    mother of four amazing boys, a research
  24. 00:00:59
    ethics professional, a wife to an
  25. 00:01:01
    incredible engineer, an active
  26. 00:01:02
    community member, an advocate for women
  27. 00:01:05
    and girls, a teacher, a daughter, an
  28. 00:01:07
    aspiring beekeeper, that's a story for
  29. 00:01:10
    another day, and especially a lifelong
  30. 00:01:12
    learner. Early in my career as a high
  31. 00:01:15
    school biology teacher, I witnessed how
  32. 00:01:16
    education empowers and opens doors of
  33. 00:01:19
    opportunity for my students. I saw that
  34. 00:01:21
    science was not solely about memorizing
  35. 00:01:24
    facts and taking tests. It's about
  36. 00:01:26
    curiosity, discovery connections. I
  37. 00:01:28
    making, and
  38. 00:01:30
    love these From teaching to navigating
  39. 00:01:33
    the complexities of research ethics as
  40. 00:01:35
    an IRB director, my career has been
  41. 00:01:38
    shaped by a commitment to bridging gaps,
  42. 00:01:41
    fostering understanding, and helping
  43. 00:01:43
    others make connections. Whether
  44. 00:01:45
    advocating for underrepresented
  45. 00:01:46
    populations or engaging communities in
  46. 00:01:49
    discussions about research, my aim is
  47. 00:01:52
    always to elevate voices and create
  48. 00:01:54
    spaces for growth and learning. My
  49. 00:01:56
    passion for understanding has led me
  50. 00:01:58
    here today to encourage you to discover
  51. 00:02:00
    and connect with our guests as we ask
  52. 00:02:02
    questions about what science means to us.
  53. 00:02:05
    Every day, we are impacted by science
  54. 00:02:07
    and research without even realizing it.
  55. 00:02:10
    I am pleased to welcome you to Primer's
  56. 00:02:12
    podcast, Research Ethics Reimagine,
  57. 00:02:15
    where we hope each conversation is an
  58. 00:02:17
    opportunity to enlighten, inspire, and
  59. 00:02:20
    connect. I'm excited to host today's
  60. 00:02:22
    episode.
  61. 00:02:31
    Today, we have with us Dr. Robert
  62. 00:02:33
    Nobles, who is an epidemiologist and
  63. 00:02:35
    the Vice President for Research
  64. 00:02:36
    Administration at Emory University, and
  65. 00:02:39
    Dr. Amanda Detmer, who is a research
  66. 00:02:41
    scientist at the Yale Child Study Center
  67. 00:02:44
    and the Yale School of Medicine. At
  68. 00:02:46
    Emory, Robert promotes research growth
  69. 00:02:48
    through oversight and execution of the
  70. 00:02:50
    strategic direction of an expansive
  71. 00:02:53
    research portfolio across the university
  72. 00:02:55
    Amanda leads the Human and Animal
  73. 00:02:58
    Integrated Research Lab and the Yale
  74. 00:03:00
    Child Study Center. She's a comparative
  75. 00:03:03
    psychologist and behavioral
  76. 00:03:05
    neuroscientist with over 20 years of
  77. 00:03:07
    experience studying non-human primate
  78. 00:03:09
    models of child health and development.
  79. 00:03:11
    I'm pleased to be able to have this
  80. 00:03:13
    conversation today with Robert and
  81. 00:03:15
    Amanda, and to share it with you, our
  82. 00:03:17
    listeners. Today our conversation will
  83. 00:03:20
    focus on building and maintaining trust
  84. 00:03:23
    in research and science This is our
  85. 00:03:25
    first episode. We'd like to encourage
  86. 00:03:27
    our listeners to visit Primer's research
  87. 00:03:30
    ethics timeline, which serves as a
  88. 00:03:32
    guide for understanding the pathway of
  89. 00:03:34
    these ethical frameworks that govern
  90. 00:03:36
    animal and human research. For today's
  91. 00:03:39
    conversation, we'll discuss some of
  92. 00:03:41
    those ethical principles and how they
  93. 00:03:43
    frame the regulations that we know of
  94. 00:03:45
    today, but we'll also touch on what
  95. 00:03:47
    ethical research looks like in the 21st
  96. 00:03:50
    century as we work to rebuild trust in
  97. 00:03:53
    research and science. So we'll get
  98. 00:03:55
    started, thank you. My first question
  99. 00:03:58
    is, is there a disconnect between the
  100. 00:04:00
    individuals who implement ethical
  101. 00:04:02
    frameworks for conducting research and
  102. 00:04:04
    the community that receives benefits
  103. 00:04:07
    from such research? That's a really
  104. 00:04:09
    good question. I think the answer goes
  105. 00:04:13
    both ways. There is a disconnect
  106. 00:04:14
    between the individuals that provide
  107. 00:04:17
    oversight activities, but they happen
  108. 00:04:20
    to be part of the communities that
  109. 00:04:22
    benefit from the novel and innovative
  110. 00:04:24
    activities we garner out of research
  111. 00:04:27
    activities. But I think what happens
  112. 00:04:29
    with many of us is that we live in
  113. 00:04:31
    multiple worlds. We're part of multiple
  114. 00:04:33
    communities. And oftentimes we don't
  115. 00:04:36
    really make the connection of us being a
  116. 00:04:38
    community member who benefits and also
  117. 00:04:40
    be the regulatory bodies or compliance
  118. 00:04:42
    bodies that enforce ethics and the
  119. 00:04:45
    values of carrying out research
  120. 00:04:47
    responsibly. And so I think there's
  121. 00:04:49
    something to the question that we
  122. 00:04:53
    collectively need to embrace our
  123. 00:04:56
    holistic selves in the review and the
  124. 00:04:59
    dissemination and the sharing of
  125. 00:05:02
    research related activities. And to
  126. 00:05:04
    that vein and Amanda and I had an
  127. 00:05:05
    opportunity to talk about briefly
  128. 00:05:08
    primate related research, I wonder from
  129. 00:05:11
    her how much does she share with
  130. 00:05:13
    individuals about the value of non-human
  131. 00:05:16
    primate work? And to strangers on the
  132. 00:05:19
    street Is it something that we keep our
  133. 00:05:21
    science to ourselves?
  134. 00:05:23
    Yeah, great question, Robert and Ivy
  135. 00:05:26
    too. And I think to answer your
  136. 00:05:28
    question first, Ivy, and to piggyback
  137. 00:05:30
    off what Robert said, I think in the
  138. 00:05:32
    animal research realm, there's, it's a
  139. 00:05:35
    little different, right? The people
  140. 00:05:38
    who oversee research ethics there are
  141. 00:05:42
    obviously, right, very different from
  142. 00:05:44
    the animals who participate in the
  143. 00:05:46
    research. However, I do think that it
  144. 00:05:51
    often is the case that the people who
  145. 00:05:53
    oversee the animal research ethics are
  146. 00:05:56
    the ones who do eventually and
  147. 00:05:59
    ultimately benefit from the knowledge
  148. 00:06:02
    that is gained from animal-based
  149. 00:06:04
    research. But what a lot of the public
  150. 00:06:06
    doesn't realize is the animals
  151. 00:06:07
    themselves often can also gain. For
  152. 00:06:10
    example, there may be medical
  153. 00:06:13
    developments that are trialed in animal
  154. 00:06:16
    models before moving onto humans, or
  155. 00:06:20
    that our society. are just child and
  156. 00:06:21
    animals to improve animal-only health.
  157. 00:06:24
    And all of that research requires
  158. 00:06:27
    ethical research oversight, and so,
  159. 00:06:29
    you know, I have a pet dog, right?
  160. 00:06:31
    When I go take her to the vet every year
  161. 00:06:33
    for her rabies vaccine, I do a little
  162. 00:06:36
    silent, thank you to the animal
  163. 00:06:40
    researchers who developed that vaccine
  164. 00:06:42
    who continue to improve medications for
  165. 00:06:44
    her and to improve her health. I think
  166. 00:06:47
    the community differs in a little bit of
  167. 00:06:49
    a different way than with human-based
  168. 00:06:51
    research, but in a valuable way
  169. 00:06:53
    nonetheless. And then to answer your
  170. 00:06:55
    question, Robert, how much do I kind
  171. 00:06:57
    of just talk to people on the street?
  172. 00:06:59
    You know, I'll say more than I used to.
  173. 00:07:01
    It increases, it's increased over the
  174. 00:07:03
    last several years. And the reason for
  175. 00:07:06
    that is largely a personal professional
  176. 00:07:09
    experience. I had where the research
  177. 00:07:12
    group I was involved in, we were
  178. 00:07:13
    targeted by anti-animal research
  179. 00:07:15
    activists and it really drove home the
  180. 00:07:18
    need to just be very. open and up front
  181. 00:07:22
    and welcome questions in conversation.
  182. 00:07:24
    And I've actually found that when I lead
  183. 00:07:27
    with that now, you know, like the
  184. 00:07:28
    elevator conversation, what do you do?
  185. 00:07:30
    Most people in general are like, Oh,
  186. 00:07:33
    wow, tell me more. And opens up a
  187. 00:07:36
    great conversation. I think you brought
  188. 00:07:39
    up a really good point, Amanda,
  189. 00:07:41
    because I'm most providing this
  190. 00:07:42
    community of really dedicated ethics
  191. 00:07:45
    professionals with an elevator pitch.
  192. 00:07:47
    Because oftentimes we don't know, I say
  193. 00:07:49
    we because I still feel a part of the
  194. 00:07:51
    community. We don't know where to start.
  195. 00:07:54
    And so if you were to ask or to design
  196. 00:07:57
    an elevator pitch, Robert and Amanda,
  197. 00:07:59
    what would that sound like? I know I'm
  198. 00:08:01
    putting you on the spot, but this is a
  199. 00:08:02
    really good one. Related to research
  200. 00:08:04
    ethics or - Yeah, related to research
  201. 00:08:07
    ethics. That we do or - Both in the
  202. 00:08:09
    sense of, you know, going back to the
  203. 00:08:11
    original question of the disconnect. So
  204. 00:08:14
    we recognize that a disconnect exists.
  205. 00:08:16
    How do we begin to build that connection?
  206. 00:08:20
    And so could it be done through like
  207. 00:08:22
    this is what you would say or this is
  208. 00:08:23
    what you would, you know, this would,
  209. 00:08:24
    what would spark someone's interest?
  210. 00:08:26
    Because you said that when you began to
  211. 00:08:28
    have that conversation, they wanted to
  212. 00:08:30
    know more. Yeah, so coming as a
  213. 00:08:34
    comparative psychologist and
  214. 00:08:35
    animal-based researcher, this is not at
  215. 00:08:38
    all probably similar to anything Robert
  216. 00:08:40
    might say in an elevator, right? Or at
  217. 00:08:42
    the park or whatever, but when I get to
  218. 00:08:44
    questions, so what do you do? I
  219. 00:08:46
    generally answer with something along
  220. 00:08:48
    the lines of, I'm a behavioral
  221. 00:08:50
    neuroscientist, and I study non-human
  222. 00:08:53
    primate models of child health and
  223. 00:08:55
    development. And it either goes kind of
  224. 00:08:58
    one or two ways. People are interested
  225. 00:09:00
    in the child development. They're like,
  226. 00:09:01
    oh my gosh, tell me about this thing my
  227. 00:09:03
    kid just did the other day. Or they
  228. 00:09:04
    hear the non-human primate, and then
  229. 00:09:06
    they'll, oh, what kind of primate?
  230. 00:09:08
    And then they'll ask, why do you study
  231. 00:09:09
    them? And then I then feed off of the
  232. 00:09:11
    questions that they ask me to have a
  233. 00:09:15
    continuing and open conversation Yeah,
  234. 00:09:19
    it's a great question. you know, when
  235. 00:09:20
    I reflect on that, I am very, very
  236. 00:09:23
    proud of what I do. But I am very
  237. 00:09:26
    discreet to individuals that don't know
  238. 00:09:30
    me not to overshare, which is very
  239. 00:09:34
    interesting. Most times, people ask me
  240. 00:09:37
    what I do, and I say, oh, I'm an
  241. 00:09:38
    epidemiologist, right? And then they
  242. 00:09:42
    think I'm a, I deal with the
  243. 00:09:46
    epidermis, right? And I'm like, well,
  244. 00:09:49
    no, no, no. So some people will say,
  245. 00:09:51
    well, what is that? And then I would
  246. 00:09:53
    explain, I used to track diseases and
  247. 00:09:57
    be with the CDC. And that was more than
  248. 00:09:58
    20 years ago.
  249. 00:10:02
    And then they, if they want to continue
  250. 00:10:04
    to engage,
  251. 00:10:06
    then I do. But it's very interesting,
  252. 00:10:09
    because then it leads into what do you
  253. 00:10:11
    do now? Are you a professor? And I'm
  254. 00:10:13
    like, well, I used to be. But now I
  255. 00:10:15
    help people with research activities.
  256. 00:10:17
    And then they get to want to And I try
  257. 00:10:20
    not to, this is not the normal way of
  258. 00:10:23
    me trying to, in academic settings,
  259. 00:10:26
    trying to explain what you know or
  260. 00:10:29
    explain your title and what you do at an
  261. 00:10:30
    institution, you're just trying to be a
  262. 00:10:32
    regular community company. And so I
  263. 00:10:35
    find myself holding back until other
  264. 00:10:38
    things happen, where people are
  265. 00:10:39
    sneezing or, 'cause I try infectious
  266. 00:10:39
    diseases. And so I, or they have spots
  267. 00:10:39
    on them or
  268. 00:10:47
    anything I'm like, oh, well, you
  269. 00:10:48
    should probably get that checked out
  270. 00:10:51
    because
  271. 00:10:53
    I do find myself not overly disclosing.
  272. 00:10:57
    And it's very interesting, 'cause one
  273. 00:10:58
    of these conversations happened during
  274. 00:11:01
    COVID. And I mean, I would explain to
  275. 00:11:02
    individuals, like you really don't need
  276. 00:11:04
    a mask outside. Dilution is the
  277. 00:11:06
    solution to pollution. There's this,
  278. 00:11:09
    okay, maybe I'm going too far. But my
  279. 00:11:11
    wife would have these conversations,
  280. 00:11:13
    the communities would have these
  281. 00:11:14
    conversations I would stay quiet unless
  282. 00:11:16
    they ask me a question and my wife would
  283. 00:11:19
    say He knows the answer, he's just not
  284. 00:11:21
    telling us because we have to ask him
  285. 00:11:23
    directly. Because I don't want to
  286. 00:11:26
    squelch this common conversations and
  287. 00:11:29
    then I choose not to engage. But it's
  288. 00:11:32
    very interesting that I try not to
  289. 00:11:34
    overshare, but in thinking of the
  290. 00:11:37
    purpose of this podcast, we probably
  291. 00:11:39
    should share more. Because I think us
  292. 00:11:42
    integrating into our communities and
  293. 00:11:44
    making the connections where people
  294. 00:11:45
    understand what we do, what we stand
  295. 00:11:49
    for, how we carry it out, and how
  296. 00:11:51
    sacred research is. It's something that
  297. 00:11:54
    we probably should do more of as
  298. 00:11:56
    individuals within our communities.
  299. 00:12:00
    And instead of just trying to blend in,
  300. 00:12:02
    I think I try to blend in a lot and not
  301. 00:12:04
    overshare being doctorate, educated,
  302. 00:12:07
    blah, blah, blah, blah, right? Like
  303. 00:12:09
    it's just not
  304. 00:12:11
    what I lead with. I think that's
  305. 00:12:14
    fascinating to consider how we, are
  306. 00:12:16
    citizens and community members as well
  307. 00:12:19
    as, you know, for you all, scientists
  308. 00:12:21
    and ethics professionals, but really
  309. 00:12:23
    beginning to integrate these
  310. 00:12:25
    conversations into our communities.
  311. 00:12:27
    Because, you know, trust is built with
  312. 00:12:29
    these conversations, right, and
  313. 00:12:31
    transparency. Moving into our next set
  314. 00:12:33
    of questions, we're living in a time
  315. 00:12:35
    where we face a declining level of trust
  316. 00:12:37
    in our institutions across the board,
  317. 00:12:39
    right? And we've seen that. Science
  318. 00:12:41
    and research are not immune from that
  319. 00:12:44
    The pandemic, of course, thrust
  320. 00:12:45
    science into politics in an
  321. 00:12:47
    unprecedented way. But we recognize
  322. 00:12:50
    that there is a lack of trust in
  323. 00:12:52
    scientists and research as a whole.
  324. 00:12:55
    What do you think is driving that
  325. 00:12:57
    decline in the trust in science? Or I
  326. 00:13:00
    can ask it to you this way, too, or
  327. 00:13:01
    think about it. Was there ever a high
  328. 00:13:04
    trust in science and research in our
  329. 00:13:06
    country? I've been asking myself that
  330. 00:13:09
    question lately. I'll jump forward and
  331. 00:13:12
    I think we had high trust before I was
  332. 00:13:14
    born. This is what I think. And this
  333. 00:13:17
    is the disconnect that I had even even
  334. 00:13:19
    growing up and with some scientists
  335. 00:13:21
    today.
  336. 00:13:24
    We learn a lot and we become experts in
  337. 00:13:28
    certain fields and we find ourselves not
  338. 00:13:31
    being able to communicate with
  339. 00:13:33
    individuals not in our field about the
  340. 00:13:36
    science and the things that we know and
  341. 00:13:39
    and what I what I firmly believe is that
  342. 00:13:41
    you have to make a connection and so so
  343. 00:13:44
    some of our scientists or at least the
  344. 00:13:46
    scientists who are get on TV or or are
  345. 00:13:51
    sharing some of them don't connect with
  346. 00:13:55
    the audience they're they're seeking a
  347. 00:13:57
    different audience that can actually
  348. 00:13:59
    receive the information from them and in
  349. 00:14:02
    when we in when we're all not talking
  350. 00:14:07
    we leave the risk that the science is
  351. 00:14:10
    above of everyone, everyone, and you
  352. 00:14:12
    have to be on this platform to get it.
  353. 00:14:15
    which then allows everyone else to draw
  354. 00:14:17
    their conclusions of what they believe
  355. 00:14:19
    and the watered down versions of
  356. 00:14:21
    information that we receive and some of
  357. 00:14:23
    the media outlets. And so I think we
  358. 00:14:25
    did trust science at a point of time
  359. 00:14:29
    when we need science to move forward.
  360. 00:14:31
    And I think we're at that time now. The
  361. 00:14:34
    challenge is that it becomes polarized
  362. 00:14:37
    in political of scientific messaging and
  363. 00:14:40
    then we lose our audiences, right? And
  364. 00:14:43
    so I think collectively we could do a
  365. 00:14:45
    better job at simplifying scientific
  366. 00:14:49
    messages, even though that
  367. 00:14:51
    simplification makes the message
  368. 00:14:53
    imperfect. But Elise is digestible.
  369. 00:14:57
    That's such a great segue to what I
  370. 00:15:00
    thought of in response to this question,
  371. 00:15:02
    Robert, which is I think there's a few
  372. 00:15:05
    systemic components at play here And one
  373. 00:15:10
    is this seeming, it seems to be like a,
  374. 00:15:14
    Gosh, just the omnipresent desire or
  375. 00:15:19
    even need for the sound bite.
  376. 00:15:22
    And this is the society we're in now.
  377. 00:15:26
    We weren't always that way, right?
  378. 00:15:28
    When you think about how we consumed our
  379. 00:15:29
    media, probably back around the time
  380. 00:15:32
    where Robert, you feel like we trusted
  381. 00:15:34
    science as a society, we read
  382. 00:15:36
    newspapers. That was the only way to
  383. 00:15:38
    get our news. We had to sit and read
  384. 00:15:41
    and digest Now everything's at our
  385. 00:15:44
    fingertips. And if it's not in one or
  386. 00:15:46
    two sentences, forget it, you're not
  387. 00:15:48
    gonna hook the reader or the consumer or
  388. 00:15:50
    whatever. And it's a disservice in a
  389. 00:15:53
    lot of ways, I think, because that
  390. 00:15:55
    science is hardly ever that simplistic.
  391. 00:15:59
    So the challenge then becomes how can we
  392. 00:16:02
    simplify it?
  393. 00:16:05
    And it takes a lot of work. It takes
  394. 00:16:07
    training that we don't get, this is
  395. 00:16:09
    another part of the system as scientists,
  396. 00:16:10
    we don't get this type of training.
  397. 00:16:13
    research. Or you don't get
  398. 00:16:15
    communications degrees, right? Or
  399. 00:16:18
    social media classes. These are all
  400. 00:16:20
    things that we have to do on our own
  401. 00:16:22
    time extra that largely are not
  402. 00:16:25
    incentivized by the institutions that we
  403. 00:16:27
    work for, right? Where the things that
  404. 00:16:29
    are incentivized are research
  405. 00:16:32
    publications and grants, largely
  406. 00:16:34
    teaching and service to your institution.
  407. 00:16:37
    So there's that systemic issue Have you
  408. 00:16:39
    heard of the phraseall research isme
  409. 00:16:42
    search where researchers will tend to
  410. 00:16:45
    tackle problems that have personal
  411. 00:16:47
    relevance to them, right? So this
  412. 00:16:49
    statement is a little bit ofme search
  413. 00:16:51
    orrelevant where I'm a parent of two
  414. 00:16:53
    school-aged kids. I have a middle
  415. 00:16:54
    school or an elementary school and I'm
  416. 00:16:56
    watching them go through their science
  417. 00:16:57
    classes. As children, they have a
  418. 00:16:59
    mother at home who's a scientist. Do
  419. 00:17:02
    they like their science class? Not
  420. 00:17:04
    really. And when I hear about the
  421. 00:17:07
    things they're doing in their science
  422. 00:17:08
    classes, they're really not terribly
  423. 00:17:10
    different from what I remember doing at
  424. 00:17:12
    those same ages. And so then the system
  425. 00:17:15
    of even teacher preparation, right?
  426. 00:17:18
    And it's like, I feel like the emphasis
  427. 00:17:22
    for the most part in advocating for STEM
  428. 00:17:26
    education comes later. Maybe starting
  429. 00:17:29
    in high schools where you really get
  430. 00:17:31
    like a hard push and like, look how
  431. 00:17:32
    cool this can be. I think there's so
  432. 00:17:34
    much we can do from the earliest ages.
  433. 00:17:36
    I do think it's improving. My children
  434. 00:17:38
    have learned about from kindergarten
  435. 00:17:40
    through now, scientists that I never
  436. 00:17:44
    would have, never even knew about when
  437. 00:17:47
    I was a child and different types of
  438. 00:17:50
    science. So it's slow, but those are
  439. 00:17:52
    just some of the things I think are
  440. 00:17:53
    playing into the issue here. Well, let
  441. 00:17:56
    me give you one example. 'Cause I mean,
  442. 00:17:58
    I absolutely agree with you Amanda. I
  443. 00:18:02
    mean, 'cause my kids are going through
  444. 00:18:03
    science class and every once in a while,
  445. 00:18:05
    they're like, oh dad, you should come
  446. 00:18:07
    do the dad teacher science thing and
  447. 00:18:10
    teach us about research. And I've done
  448. 00:18:11
    it a couple times and they're
  449. 00:18:13
    embarrassed. I'm there. But
  450. 00:18:17
    I will say that it's not just that we're
  451. 00:18:20
    not trained. It's actually a bit taboo
  452. 00:18:23
    for us to simplify messages. My early
  453. 00:18:27
    research was, I mean, I find ways that
  454. 00:18:32
    people get sick and people die, right?
  455. 00:18:34
    Like, this is what I do.
  456. 00:18:37
    I find risk as an epidemiologist. And
  457. 00:18:40
    some of my early work was in Florida
  458. 00:18:44
    monitoring enterococcus in the beaches
  459. 00:18:47
    of what would make beachgoers get sick,
  460. 00:18:50
    right? And what
  461. 00:18:53
    I found in the process of researching
  462. 00:18:56
    that and being part of the state health
  463. 00:18:59
    office and doing public notification is
  464. 00:19:02
    that I needed to make it very, very
  465. 00:19:04
    simple. And so we came up with the flag
  466. 00:19:06
    system. I came up with the flag system
  467. 00:19:08
    where, If bacterial levels are high,
  468. 00:19:11
    then it's red, it's yellow. And they
  469. 00:19:14
    still use the flag system. That's you?
  470. 00:19:16
    Yeah. I
  471. 00:19:19
    think that's amazing. Are you ever able
  472. 00:19:19
    to take my kiss to the beach? Exactly.
  473. 00:19:21
    Throughout the country, that's
  474. 00:19:26
    it, Robert. Love it, Robert. So
  475. 00:19:29
    I did that like in the 90s, right?
  476. 00:19:30
    Robert's flags. But look, but get this.
  477. 00:19:31
    When I got called from a media outlet,
  478. 00:19:35
    because I found when it rained the
  479. 00:19:37
    septic systems in Florida leaked
  480. 00:19:38
    directly into the water and people got
  481. 00:19:40
    sick Like, it was a direct correlation.
  482. 00:19:44
    I was explaining to all this, and
  483. 00:19:46
    Terracakis has a bacteria indicator. I
  484. 00:19:47
    was doing all this stuff, and they're
  485. 00:19:49
    like, I mean, media people. They got
  486. 00:19:52
    me. They said, This is really good.
  487. 00:19:55
    It sounds real scientific. How would
  488. 00:19:56
    you explain it if I was a fifth grader?
  489. 00:19:59
    And I'm like, Oh. I said, You
  490. 00:20:02
    wouldn't want to swim in your toilet
  491. 00:20:03
    bowl, would you? And they're like,
  492. 00:20:05
    That's perfect, right? And
  493. 00:20:09
    they're like, And then they walked away
  494. 00:20:10
    and drew a cartoon. where a toilet bowl
  495. 00:20:15
    seat was sitting in the water, two old
  496. 00:20:18
    people were walking by and they were
  497. 00:20:20
    like, But we don't want to swim in a
  498. 00:20:23
    toilet bowl, do we?
  499. 00:20:25
    And I had to tell the people. I had to
  500. 00:20:27
    tell the people I
  501. 00:20:30
    worked with and the supervisors, like,
  502. 00:20:32
    I think I just messed up, right? I got
  503. 00:20:37
    pulled into oversimplifying, but it
  504. 00:20:40
    actually worked because it allowed for
  505. 00:20:42
    floor to get in the island of Key West
  506. 00:20:45
    a5 million appropriation to build a
  507. 00:20:48
    wastewater management system instead of
  508. 00:20:48
    septic systems leaking into the water
  509. 00:20:48
    and
  510. 00:20:52
    making people sit. And so I think we
  511. 00:20:55
    have to figure out a way and
  512. 00:20:59
    really change the dynamics of how we
  513. 00:21:02
    operate within our academic and
  514. 00:21:05
    scientific communities that it's okay
  515. 00:21:09
    for us to simplify languages
  516. 00:21:13
    Wow. Great conversation and great
  517. 00:21:15
    examples. I'll never look at the flax
  518. 00:21:18
    the same way. I always see your face
  519. 00:21:20
    Robert when I'm at the beach in the
  520. 00:21:22
    summer. Just don't go swimming within
  521. 00:21:26
    the toilet bowl. Within six hours of it
  522. 00:21:30
    raining because even wastewater
  523. 00:21:34
    treatment plants, they bypass the
  524. 00:21:37
    filtration component and it just flows
  525. 00:21:39
    directly into the water ways Does it
  526. 00:21:42
    kind of apply? So don't, don't go
  527. 00:21:43
    swimming around. That is good to know.
  528. 00:21:44
    Great PSA. Yes. Yes. Along those same
  529. 00:21:49
    lines, my next question deals with
  530. 00:21:51
    really understanding that the current
  531. 00:21:53
    degradation of public trust can be
  532. 00:21:55
    attributed to a series of campaigns that
  533. 00:21:57
    aren't fact-based, and we know that,
  534. 00:21:59
    and they ultimately are not in the best
  535. 00:22:01
    interest of society. Many of them are
  536. 00:22:03
    ideology-based movements with vested
  537. 00:22:06
    interests to undermine science. So how
  538. 00:22:09
    can we work to combat disinformation and
  539. 00:22:12
    rebuild trust and science, including
  540. 00:22:15
    considering these campaigns in the first
  541. 00:22:17
    Pacific against the non-human animal
  542. 00:22:19
    research? So how do we do that? Such
  543. 00:22:23
    an important question because there
  544. 00:22:25
    certainly are more than one groups,
  545. 00:22:29
    anti-animal research groups with very
  546. 00:22:31
    absolutist agendas. They want nothing
  547. 00:22:33
    but to get rid of all animal-based
  548. 00:22:36
    research period, stop, you know, full
  549. 00:22:38
    stop. I think a huge part of the
  550. 00:22:42
    solution is we cannot rely on individual
  551. 00:22:46
    scientists alone to do this very
  552. 00:22:48
    important work of fighting back,
  553. 00:22:52
    essentially. I think the best defense
  554. 00:22:58
    is a great offense and institutions,
  555. 00:23:02
    universities, colleges, federal
  556. 00:23:05
    agencies, et cetera, They hire
  557. 00:23:08
    scientists. with full knowledge that
  558. 00:23:10
    they engage in animal-based research for
  559. 00:23:12
    the betterment of society, both animal
  560. 00:23:15
    and human society. And I think it's
  561. 00:23:18
    incumbent on those institutions to
  562. 00:23:20
    provide that strong offense on behalf of
  563. 00:23:23
    the individual scientists. If you think
  564. 00:23:25
    about it, this is a completely
  565. 00:23:26
    off-the-cuff analogy, so it may fall
  566. 00:23:29
    apart. We'll see. But
  567. 00:23:31
    if you think of the scientific
  568. 00:23:32
    enterprise and the endeavor as a team,
  569. 00:23:34
    all sciences teamwork, right? An
  570. 00:23:36
    individual player on that team, in a
  571. 00:23:39
    team sport like this, is not going to
  572. 00:23:41
    be able to, by themselves, turn this
  573. 00:23:45
    score around, right? It's going to
  574. 00:23:46
    require a concerted effort and everybody
  575. 00:23:49
    working together, like not just
  576. 00:23:51
    teamwork, but like. Kind of unified,
  577. 00:23:54
    you know, it's really a collective
  578. 00:23:56
    approach. Yeah, you know, they all
  579. 00:23:57
    have, they're playing by the same
  580. 00:23:59
    playbook and everyone has their role,
  581. 00:24:01
    but the institutions have to not only be
  582. 00:24:05
    on board with defending their scientists
  583. 00:24:07
    when they come under attack.
  584. 00:24:10
    But go above and beyond that and be
  585. 00:24:11
    proactive in the public communication
  586. 00:24:14
    about the importance of the types of
  587. 00:24:15
    research that their scientists do,
  588. 00:24:18
    about providing engaging factual
  589. 00:24:22
    evidence as to the importance of this
  590. 00:24:24
    type of research, and not hiding behind
  591. 00:24:27
    their walls and not putting the
  592. 00:24:29
    scientists out on their own to do their
  593. 00:24:32
    own defense, and that's I have no idea
  594. 00:24:35
    how my analogy went, but I It went
  595. 00:24:37
    great. I was imagining a basketball
  596. 00:24:40
    team, so you're okay, all right. It
  597. 00:24:42
    is it's a full core press. But let me
  598. 00:24:45
    let me say, let me say, and I'll put
  599. 00:24:48
    primer in contention of what they can do
  600. 00:24:50
    as well. What I've seen at the 4, 000
  601. 00:24:54
    academic institutions we have across our
  602. 00:24:56
    country is everybody's trying to figure
  603. 00:24:57
    out messaging priorities and what to
  604. 00:25:01
    share with their community. What we
  605. 00:25:03
    don't have is a collective, and this is
  606. 00:25:06
    what Amanda was saying, a collective
  607. 00:25:08
    voice of what should be shared about
  608. 00:25:11
    animal research, or research in general,
  609. 00:25:13
    and when we think about institutions
  610. 00:25:17
    like Primer, Neighbor, and others that
  611. 00:25:20
    are like, if you just think about
  612. 00:25:22
    institutions and organizations that are
  613. 00:25:25
    promoting positive science, what those
  614. 00:25:29
    institutions don't do is give the
  615. 00:25:31
    playbook or the messaging to
  616. 00:25:35
    institutions to distribute instead of
  617. 00:25:38
    them needing to create their own message,
  618. 00:25:41
    right? And so one of the things that I
  619. 00:25:44
    thought was very positive in the 80s was
  620. 00:25:47
    public service announcements. I don't
  621. 00:25:48
    know where they went, right? I mean,
  622. 00:25:51
    but if it made sense or if it didn't,
  623. 00:25:54
    Nancy Reagan always said, say no to
  624. 00:25:56
    drugs. Just say no. And then you see
  625. 00:25:58
    the frying pan and it would come on in
  626. 00:26:00
    the middle of shows, right? And what
  627. 00:26:02
    we need to do is develop those sound
  628. 00:26:07
    bites because Amanda already hit on that
  629. 00:26:09
    People have such small attention spans.
  630. 00:26:12
    We need to give a sentence or two of why
  631. 00:26:15
    we do research. Why do we do research
  632. 00:26:17
    with animals? What's the value? What
  633. 00:26:19
    did we create? What was produced? Why
  634. 00:26:21
    does research make our lives better?
  635. 00:26:24
    And if Permer did that and gave it to
  636. 00:26:26
    the member organizations in the
  637. 00:26:28
    community, we will start to socialize
  638. 00:26:31
    this understanding
  639. 00:26:34
    why we should say no to drugs and why we
  640. 00:26:36
    should say yes to research, right?
  641. 00:26:38
    We're just missing, the playbook was
  642. 00:26:40
    already laid out for us a long time ago,
  643. 00:26:42
    and everybody's not on Twitter and
  644. 00:26:45
    Snapchat and TikTok and this and that,
  645. 00:26:46
    and
  646. 00:26:48
    I wouldn't even know how to subscribe to
  647. 00:26:50
    all that, but
  648. 00:26:53
    people will still hear messages and
  649. 00:26:56
    Permer can be an authoritative voice and
  650. 00:26:59
    a beacon of truth of why we do what we
  651. 00:27:02
    do
  652. 00:27:04
    in research ethics for both humans and
  653. 00:27:05
    animals. Absolutely. We have our
  654. 00:27:09
    marching orders now. Yeah,
  655. 00:27:12
    I know we're coming up on time. I do
  656. 00:27:14
    have one more question that I do want to
  657. 00:27:15
    get in. So I'm going to kind of shift
  658. 00:27:18
    it real quick. We had some leading
  659. 00:27:20
    questions, but if we consider human
  660. 00:27:22
    research and talking about the Belmont
  661. 00:27:24
    report and the principles, the three
  662. 00:27:26
    principles that, you know, undergird
  663. 00:27:27
    our regulations, we begin to think
  664. 00:27:31
    about vulnerability and how that's a
  665. 00:27:34
    concept in engaging particularly
  666. 00:27:37
    populations who do have some concerns
  667. 00:27:40
    around research and trust and research.
  668. 00:27:43
    So do you think the existing frameworks
  669. 00:27:45
    have fully captured the paradigms of
  670. 00:27:48
    vulnerability that exist today? I don't,
  671. 00:27:52
    and then I'll let Amanda answer it. So
  672. 00:27:54
    the answer is no. I think at that time
  673. 00:27:58
    when the Belmont report was created and
  674. 00:28:01
    when we had our code of federal
  675. 00:28:02
    regulations, they identified groups
  676. 00:28:05
    that had been targeted and and not fully
  677. 00:28:10
    engaged appropriately to protect, right?
  678. 00:28:12
    And so, I mean, so we have, we have
  679. 00:28:15
    infants and we have pregnant women and
  680. 00:28:16
    we have prisoners.
  681. 00:28:19
    When I look at our communities, there's
  682. 00:28:21
    vulnerability related to socioeconomic
  683. 00:28:23
    status. There's vulnerabilities related
  684. 00:28:25
    to regions. There's vulnerabilities
  685. 00:28:29
    related to hierarchy, access.
  686. 00:28:34
    We have not fully captured the full
  687. 00:28:37
    paradigm to talk about how do you make a
  688. 00:28:39
    connection with these communities, to
  689. 00:28:41
    be able to engage with them
  690. 00:28:43
    appropriately about the value of
  691. 00:28:45
    research and being involved and being
  692. 00:28:46
    included and being a participant. And
  693. 00:28:48
    shame on us for not doing that because
  694. 00:28:51
    we're missing the ability to find risks
  695. 00:28:58
    of individuals and the nuance of risks
  696. 00:29:00
    while we try to pull people into
  697. 00:29:04
    studying these risks And so it's a
  698. 00:29:07
    challenge.
  699. 00:29:09
    But I want to turn it over to Amanda to
  700. 00:29:14
    answer as well, because I think there's
  701. 00:29:17
    real risk with the same levels of
  702. 00:29:18
    vulnerability with our animals and human
  703. 00:29:22
    populations. Yeah, and I know that
  704. 00:29:25
    with the Belmont Report specific to
  705. 00:29:28
    human participants' research, and I
  706. 00:29:31
    think this is a great example of the
  707. 00:29:34
    value of research It's because of
  708. 00:29:37
    research that we are continually
  709. 00:29:39
    evolving our understanding of
  710. 00:29:41
    vulnerabilities when it comes to any
  711. 00:29:44
    number of outcomes, right? Robert,
  712. 00:29:46
    you named some great examples.
  713. 00:29:49
    Socioeconomic status, zip code, turns
  714. 00:29:51
    out, is a vulnerability, accessibility,
  715. 00:29:55
    which to services or lack of
  716. 00:29:58
    accessibility, which can also just be
  717. 00:29:59
    called privilege, right? Or
  718. 00:30:02
    non-privileged These are all
  719. 00:30:03
    vulnerabilities, and because of
  720. 00:30:06
    research, we're continually evolving
  721. 00:30:07
    our understanding of what makes people
  722. 00:30:11
    vulnerable to illness, to poor health
  723. 00:30:14
    outcomes, to not responding while the
  724. 00:30:16
    treatment, and I think the onus
  725. 00:30:18
    absolutely is on us as researchers, as
  726. 00:30:21
    a
  727. 00:30:23
    society too, as a whole, to make sure
  728. 00:30:25
    that there are regular updates to
  729. 00:30:28
    documents like the Belmont Report, to
  730. 00:30:30
    ensure that we are protecting the most
  731. 00:30:33
    vulnerable people who are very likely to
  732. 00:30:35
    be the ones who will benefit the most
  733. 00:30:37
    from the research that we do. Yeah,
  734. 00:30:40
    including terminal illnesses. Yeah. I
  735. 00:30:42
    mean, when people are desperate for an
  736. 00:30:45
    answer, they're much more willing to do
  737. 00:30:49
    anything to help.
  738. 00:30:53
    Yeah, absolutely. Well, thank you. I
  739. 00:30:56
    think we're at time. We could talk for
  740. 00:30:57
    another hour. This is really
  741. 00:30:58
    fascinating. Yes, we need to have more
  742. 00:31:01
    conversations like this. Absolutely.
  743. 00:31:09
    Thank you for listening to Research
  744. 00:31:10
    Ethics Reimagined, a podcast created by
  745. 00:31:13
    Primer and produced by syntax in motion.
  746. 00:31:16
    Please subscribe and share with your
  747. 00:31:17
    friends and colleagues. To learn how to
  748. 00:31:19
    become a member of Primer, please visit
  749. 00:31:22
    us at wwwprimerorg. Be sure to join us
  750. 00:31:26
    next month as we continue our
  751. 00:31:27
    conversation with scientists,
  752. 00:31:29
    researchers, bioesthetists, and some
  753. 00:31:32
    of the leading minds exploring new
  754. 00:31:33
    frontiers of science